Who Is Watching The Electron

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Good evening, and welcome back. Tonight we are tackling quantum reality and the so-called observer effect, a topic that has confused physicists for a century and, I suspect, is about to confuse this table for an hour.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Joining me is Arthur, who I understand has already had a pint in preparation.

Arthur: Two, actually, for scientific rigor. You gotta calibrate the instrument, Penny.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Also with us, Prepper Paul.

Prepper Paul: Thanks for having me. Fair warning, I've got a faraday bag in my coat pocket and I'm not taking it off.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: And Karen Kay, who I believe is recording this.

Karen Kay: I am recording this, for the record, and I want it on the record that I am recording it.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Noted, twice. Let's start simple. The double-slit experiment. Fire a single electron at two slits, and it behaves like a wave, passing through both, until you try to measure which slit it went through.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: The moment you look, it picks one. Like a wave, then like a particle.

Arthur: That's just what I do at closing time. Everything's a possibility until the bartender looks at me, then I'm definitely a problem.

Karen Kay: Excuse me, so the electron is being surveilled. Who authorized that measurement? Where's the consent form?

Prepper Paul: Nobody authorized it, Karen, that's the point, it's happening to all of us right now and nobody's signing anything.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Well, hold on, Paul, it's a photon detector on a slit, not a—

Prepper Paul: That's exactly what they want you to call it.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Who is "they" in this scenario?

Prepper Paul: I don't say names on recorded devices, Penelope, and there's one running right next to my elbow.

Karen Kay: That's my recorder and it's for accountability, not for whoever you're worried about.

Arthur: Can I just say, the electron sounds like me on a Tuesday. Nobody's watching, I'm a wave, I'm everywhere, I'm at three pubs at once.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: I want to gently push back on the pub metaphor, Arthur, but do go on.

Arthur: Thursday somebody looks at me and suddenly I'm one particular fella, slumped, at one particular bar, owing one particular tab.

Karen Kay: This is a public health topic actually, has anyone measured the psychological toll of being observed constantly, because I have, on myself, and it's significant.

Prepper Paul: The toll is real, Karen, I'll give you that much, that's why I built the second bunker with no windows.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Let's move to Schrödinger's cat, since I feel we're circling it anyway. A cat in a sealed box with a vial that may or may not release poison, triggered by a random quantum event.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Until you open the box, the cat is, in the mathematics, both alive and dead at once.

Arthur: That is the saddest thing I've ever heard and I need everyone to know I am not okay with it.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: It's a thought experiment, Arthur, no actual cat was—

Arthur: Doesn't matter, Penny, in my heart that cat is real, his name is Gerald, and Gerald deserves better.

Karen Kay: I want to speak to whoever designed this experiment because that is animal cruelty dressed up as physics.

Prepper Paul: Schrödinger was making a point about how ridiculous quantum mechanics sounds when you scale it up to something you can see.

Karen Kay: I don't care about his point, Paul, I care about Gerald.

Arthur: Thank you, Karen. Finally, someone in this room with priorities.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: For the record, Gerald was never in danger, because Gerald never existed.

Arthur: You don't know that. Nobody opened the box.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: That is, unfortunately, technically consistent with quantum theory.

Prepper Paul: See, this is exactly why I keep three months of feed for the livestock in a separate bunker from the humans. You never open the box until you have to.

Karen Kay: That's not related at all, Paul.

Prepper Paul: Everything's related once you've read the right documents.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Which documents, out of curiosity?

Prepper Paul: Can't say. Let's just say the cat isn't the only thing in a box the government doesn't want opened.

Arthur: Gerald's in a government box now? Oh, that poor lad.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Nobody said that, Arthur.

Arthur: I'm saying it. I'm saying it for him. Somebody's got to.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Let's talk about what "observation" actually means to a physicist, because I think that's where the real confusion is. It doesn't require a conscious mind. It just means any interaction that forces a quantum system to settle into one definite state.

Karen Kay: So it's not a person watching.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Correct, it could be a single stray photon bumping into the particle.

Karen Kay: Then I withdraw my harassment complaint against the electron, but I'm keeping the file open.

Prepper Paul: That's what they told us about the smart meters too. "It's not really watching you, it's just a sensor." Sure.

Arthur: My nan had a sensor light in her hallway, went off every time the cat walked past. Cat got real self-conscious about it. Wouldn't go down that hall for a year.

Karen Kay: See, that's the cat again, that's a pattern, cats are clearly the most surveilled species on this planet.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: I don't think we can extrapolate quantum mechanics from your nan's hallway, Arthur, but I admire the effort.

Arthur: The effort is all I've got left, Penny, the pints took the rest.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Let's move to entanglement. Two particles can become linked so that measuring one instantly tells you the state of the other, no matter how far apart they are. Einstein famously called it spooky action at a distance.

Prepper Paul: Instant information transfer with no delay. You know what that sounds like to me?

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: I have a feeling you're going to say a listening device.

Prepper Paul: I'm going to say a listening device.

Karen Kay: It's not information transfer, though, is it, you can't actually send a message that way, I read that somewhere.

Prepper Paul: That's what the smart fridge people said too.

Karen Kay: Nobody has said anything about a smart fridge this entire conversation, Paul.

Prepper Paul: Exactly. That's how they get you.

Arthur: I had a thing like that once. Me and me ex. She'd stub her toe in Cork and I'd feel it in Dublin, three pints deep, no idea why. Spooky action at a distance. Real thing. Ruined me knee.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: That is almost certainly a coincidence, Arthur.

Arthur: Or love, Penny. Or love.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: I'll allow either interpretation for the purposes of radio.

Karen Kay: I want it noted that "or love" is not a peer reviewed explanation.

Arthur: Neither's half the stuff Paul's been saying and nobody's stopped him.

Prepper Paul: My stuff's got sources, Arthur, they're just not sources I can share on air.

Karen Kay: That's not how sources work.

Prepper Paul: It's exactly how sources work when the sources know what happens to people who get named.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Moving swiftly on. There's a deeper question buried in all this, which is whether the universe has a definite state at all before it's measured, or whether reality itself is somehow being decided in the act of observing it.

Karen Kay: So you're telling me the world might not be real until I personally look at it.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Some interpretations suggest something close to that, yes.

Karen Kay: Then I want to file a complaint that I have been personally responsible for creating this entire studio and nobody's thanked me.

Arthur: Thank you, Karen. Truly. Magnificent work. Love what you've done with the ceiling.

Karen Kay: I'm being sarcastic and unwell, Arthur, not accepting compliments.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Paul, where does the deep state fit into a universe that only becomes real when observed?

Prepper Paul: Think about it, Penelope. If reality collapses when it's watched, and they've got satellites watching everything, twenty four seven, then technically they're the ones deciding what's real. Not us.

Karen Kay: That is, unfortunately, the first thing you've said tonight I can't immediately argue with.

Prepper Paul: Appreciate that, Karen.

Karen Kay: Don't get used to it.

Arthur: I don't want anyone deciding what's real except me, and half the time even I don't trust the fella making that call.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: There's also the question of whether particles have properties before we measure them, or whether asking the question is what creates the answer.

Prepper Paul: It's the same with the collapse of the dollar. Everyone keeps saying it hasn't happened yet, but that's just because nobody's checked the vault.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: I don't think that's quite the same category of collapse, Paul.

Prepper Paul: Collapse is collapse, Penelope. Wave function, currency, doesn't matter, you don't want to be standing there when it does.

Karen Kay: Is my bank account in a superposition right now.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: In a manner of speaking, until you check the app, sure.

Karen Kay: I need to speak to my bank's manager immediately, this changes things.

Arthur: Careful now, Karen, the second you check it, it might collapse into overdrawn.

Karen Kay: Don't joke about that, Arthur, that's not funny, that's my actual fear.

Arthur: Wasn't a joke, love, that's just quantum mechanics, according to Penny here.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: I'm regretting several of my choices tonight.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Let's touch on free will for a moment, since this always comes up. If particles are only settled when observed, does that leave room for genuine choice, or is everything secretly predetermined underneath the randomness?

Karen Kay: I choose things all the time, I chose to come on this show, and frankly I'm reconsidering that choice in real time.

Arthur: See, that's you collapsing your own wave function right there, Karen. Real time regret. Very quantum of you.

Karen Kay: Don't quantum me, Arthur.

Prepper Paul: Randomness is just complexity we haven't mapped yet. Nothing's truly random. Someone's always got the pattern, even if it's not us.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: That's actually a real position in physics, believe it or not, it's called a hidden variables theory.

Prepper Paul: See, I don't even need the fancy name, I've been saying it for years in different words.

Karen Kay: Which words, specifically, because I'd like a direct quote for my notes.

Prepper Paul: Can't quote myself on that either, Karen, sorry.

Karen Kay: This entire interview has been off the record apparently, and yet I'm the one being recorded.

Arthur: Life's funny like that. You're the observer, Karen, and somehow you're also the one getting collapsed.

Karen Kay: I would like that phrase struck from the transcript.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Duly noted, and staying in.

Arthur: Can I say something serious for a second.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Please, Arthur, go ahead.

Arthur: If nothing's real until somebody looks at it, then Gerald the cat was only ever alive or dead because somebody cared enough to open the box. That's not physics, that's just what love is.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: That's unexpectedly lovely, Arthur.

Arthur: I have my moments. Then I lose them again. Wave function and all that.

Prepper Paul: I'll say this much, whatever's really going on in there, I'm glad my bunker doesn't have windows for anyone to look through and collapse anything.

Karen Kay: I still want a formal apology from the electron.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: I will personally see if we can arrange that for a future episode.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: We are nearly out of time, so let me try to leave our listeners with something solid. Quantum mechanics tells us that at the smallest scales, reality genuinely seems to depend, in some sense, on measurement and interaction, not on anyone's intentions or feelings.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Whatever you make of that philosophically, the equations work extraordinarily well, and that's more than I can say for most of what was argued at this table tonight.

Karen Kay: I'd like that in writing.

Arthur: I'd like another pint, but we can't all get what we want.

Prepper Paul: I'd like everyone to remember I called it first about the satellites.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Noted, all three, differently. Thank you to Arthur, to Prepper Paul, and to Karen Kay, for a conversation that somehow made both less and more sense than when we started.

Dr. Penelope Hartwell: Until next time, I'm Dr. Penelope Hartwell, reminding you that whether or not the universe is watching, we certainly were. Goodnight.